David Morrow (00:00.258)

I’m sitting down with a special guest today. Michael Cook. Michael’s a Army veteran. Spent some time in Afghanistan.

Mikael (00:05.137)
Mm-hmm.

Mikael (00:13.425)
Yep, good to go.

David Morrow (00:30.126)
many of us, but he has a special story to tell. He wrote a book called Life and Death at Abbey Gate. This is a topic that I hold dear to my heart because I had a lot of work to do in 2021. Correct me if wrong. It was 2021, right, Michael? Okay. Wow. So it’s already three years, three years ago where the fall of Kabul and the fall of the Afghan government was imminent and there wasn’t much going on in terms of evacuation effort and

Mikael (00:45.872)
Yeah, summer 2021.

David Morrow (00:59.862)
Michael clearly saw that there was an urgent need for help and he responded to the call to action and we’re going to go over his book today and a bunch of other things that led up to him getting involved in the evacuation effort. So Michael, welcome to the podcast, man’s non-arabic.

Mikael (01:16.367)
Hey, thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to this conversation. And honestly, I’m looking forward even more to hearing the Canadian perspective because, I’ve only ever talked to American veterans about this. So it definitely be interesting.

David Morrow (01:28.748)
Yeah, right on. Absolutely. I mean, what I was talking about with you before we went live here is kind of weaving together the stories because there’s a bigger story here, but being across border doesn’t help being in completely different geographical locations doesn’t help. And then, you know, having the differences in just process and just the mission of itself.

just made it so complicated and so chaotic that it’s hard to kind of get to like the big story that happened here. But ultimately there was a massive loss of life at Abbey Gate. And for those that aren’t tracking, that was the attack that kind of was, if you want to call it a crescendo moment where it was the, my God, this should never have happened. How did it get so bad? What went wrong?

And that was kind of the moment that I realized like the wheels had completely fallen off and getting the live videos and the text during that actual incident was still something that haunts me to this day. So Michael, if we could get into what inspired you to write your book, that would be awesome.

Mikael (02:45.469)
Yeah, honestly, I wasn’t really planning on writing a book about the story to begin with when I first started putting words down on the page. was, you know, was a wild month there in August of 2021, right? And anybody that worked on the evacuation was probably just absolutely exhausted and disappointed and just so many different emotions afterwards. For me, I, you know, I was able to get my two guys out of Afghanistan and I know we’ll get into that, but after we were able to get them out,

We started doing fundraising for them and just kind of setting up a support network here in the U S for when they arrived. And part of that was putting the story on social media, right? Just raising awareness about what was going on and what, and who these guys were that were going to be coming to Michigan. so throughout that process, that kind of sparked a lot of questions from friends and family and just Instagram followers, about, you know, what had happened. And so I found myself just telling this story over and over and over, and it’s, it’s not a short story, right? Like.

It’s like, you know, I think the book is five hours long, the audible version, right? So I found myself telling this story over and over. And as time went on, the details started getting fuzzy. And I kind of just made the decision like, I need to get this story on paper and just get it out of me mostly just so I don’t forget it. So I did kind of a brain dump on an on a Word document. And it was really just like I threw up on paper as kind of what I like to say.

David Morrow (04:13.038)
Mm-hmm.

Mikael (04:13.437)
And before I knew it, I had 25,000 or 30,000 words and I still felt like I had more to tell. So that’s kind of, that was really the point where I was like, okay, I think this is, I think there’s a bigger story here that I can tell if I really dig into this DOD report. And, you know, and that’s what led to eventually writing the book.

David Morrow (04:34.162)
Yeah, right on. I kind of know what you’re talking about when it comes to how hard it was to kind of explain everything to folks that are just not involved and are really just completely unaware of it, especially here in Canada. And maybe you can talk to that from an American perspective.

Mikael (04:44.306)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (04:54.71)
I was on the news almost twice a week when things were ramping up, both in English and in French. I was one of the rare breeds of folks that can speak both languages here in Canada and do an interview in both languages. And even at that, most people had no clue. It wasn’t that big of a deal, even though for me, this was a massive deal. The folks that were involved, this is a big freaking deal. This has geopolitical implications.

Mikael (05:11.111)
Hmm

Mikael (05:20.561)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (05:21.198)
Why aren’t we taking it more seriously? So from your point of view, from the American point of view, was it the same? Was it kind of the feeling of where are the adults in the room? Why isn’t anybody taking this seriously? What are the next steps? Is that the general sentiment?

Mikael (05:35.463)
Yeah, I think I guess two answers to that question. One, when it comes to just, you know, the public and the media, like this is very personal to us, right? We’ve been there. We’ve made relationships with these people. But for the American public and the Canadian public, like the war was never at their doorstep. Right. So I, while it can, it can be frustrating to, to watch people not care about this kind of thing. I certainly understand it because they had no exposure to it at all. was some war and some distant land that they

didn’t get covered on the news much anyway in the late years of the war. So I definitely understand why they wouldn’t really care. The other answer to that is, know, am I still upset about my government’s actions and how no one is being held accountable? Absolutely. So I think it’s just kind of two different sides to the coin.

David Morrow (06:24.918)
Yeah. So what then was the, what was the, the, the driving force for you to get involved? Because there was no requirement for you to get involved. What was the moment that you said to yourself, okay, I got to do something.

Mikael (06:41.182)
Well, for me is like, these were my friends, you know, I wasn’t getting involved right away just to help random people. These were my two good friends, Abdul and Mohammed that I spent a lot of time with professionally in Afghanistan and then developed just a deep personal relationship with. So like I said, it was very personal for me. it’s like, yeah, people ask me that quite often, like what made you want to get involved with this? And it’s like, well, what would you do for your good friends if, know,

their lives were being threatened. You know, you would step up and you’d help them. I don’t think that’s some very heroic action to take to help a friend. so yeah, it was personalities were guys that I knew very well. they, they were in danger. Their families were in danger. I I remember one, one point specifically where it really hit me and I was sitting right here where I am right now in my kitchen and, I was FaceTiming with, with Abdul and he was holding his little baby daughter in his arms. And this was, you know, early,

probably mid August of 21. So the Taliban was right at the footsteps of Kabul. had already taken, you know, every other city in the country. And it just hit me like, man, this little girl’s life is just being ripped out in front of my eyes. Like maybe she survives, but her future is gone. You know, she’s never going to have a job. She’s never going to go to school. She’s never going to leave the house without her face covered or without a male escort. Most recently, the Taliban has banned female voices in public places, so you can’t even speak.

David Morrow (08:05.706)
my god, wow.

Mikael (08:06.493)
as a female anymore. So these were all the things that were hitting me, and during that phone call and just realizing that her future was just being ripped away from her. And I remember hanging up and my mother was standing right next to me and I looked at her and I was like, I don’t know if there’s anything I can do, you know, and this was kind of before I had stumbled into the digital Dunkirk network. and before I had reached out to any of my public officials and I just didn’t even know where to start. and I think that’s really the phone call that just kind of.

kicked off the chain of events that led to them getting out through Abigate.

David Morrow (08:39.328)
Mm-hmm. So let’s get into the digital Dunkirk. This is the first time I heard of it. So it’s really interesting and it seems like a really great metaphor to explain what has happened. So for the non-history nerds out there, Dunkirk was the evacuation effort during the Second World War of British and Canadian soldiers and French soldiers and anybody that can get on a boat to get out of continental Europe for the Nazis took over. So

Mikael (08:52.455)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (09:07.448)
How is the incident that happened in Kabul and in Afghanistan, how does it relate to Dunkirk in modern times?

Mikael (09:16.123)
Yeah. I mean, like you said, it’s a great name. And just to touch on the Dunkirk evacuation, it was, it was done by civilians, driving their own personal boats across the water and saving our troops. So I think that’s really where the connection was, is there was just like an ad hoc group of, civilians and veterans and just so many people, that cared about Afghanistan coming together really in public forums, public forums, like Instagram and Facebook and WhatsApp and Signal and everything, to help, you know, get our partners out. And I think I wrote in the book, like,

David Morrow (09:22.519)
Right.

Mikael (09:45.969)
while I was going through the process, it really felt like a wild west town. Like if you were useful, you were put to work and it didn’t really matter who you were. And there was just so many times where I’m sitting in a group chat and I’m just like looking around the group. like, I, I shouldn’t be here. Like, you know, where there’s like, CIA case officers in the group and just like all these people, I’m like, I don’t think I have the clearance to, know, I’m a staff sergeant in the U S army reserves. Like I’m not that important.

David Morrow (10:00.877)
No

Mikael (10:16.464)
but yeah, was like, you were, if you showed up, if you were willing to work, you were put to work. So it was, was very interesting to see.

David Morrow (10:25.582)
Michael, we got a very similar experience. was a reservist sergeant as well. And I’ve been out now for a few years, like 2021. I was out of the military since 2016. And I’m on calls organizing group chats. There’s generals online. There’s people from SeaJaw here, know, joint operations. I’m like, I don’t have my security clearances. don’t, like I’m getting emails that I shouldn’t be getting. I’m talking to…

retired special forces guys that are literally living in Afghanistan. I’m like, what? How did I become the nucleus of this thing? This doesn’t make sense. And there was three of us that were part of this loose organization. It was a Facebook page, literal Facebook page that one lady, Wendy, who had started this years ago was slowly helping one Afghan family at a time over the span of like 10 years.

Mikael (11:03.069)
Hmm.

Mikael (11:09.735)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (11:21.902)
and then it just went into hyperdrive. I know the feeling. I don’t think I should be on these conversations. But the thing that was kind of, I don’t know if it was discouraging or worrisome is that the effort was being conducted by civilians like myself and a few others.

Mikael (11:29.425)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (11:47.05)
and the military was asking us what we’re doing. And that to me was a horrible feeling because

It’s above my pay grade. I’m saying this all the time as it’s above my pay grade I remember my buddies who were still in they were over for a barbecue and now Katie what what’s going on with all this stuff? I’m like who who’s in charge who’s running the show? I’m like, it’s me Wendy and a guy named Russ. They’re like, they all started laughing They’re like no seriously, dude. Seriously like that sounds like sitcom I go no, no, no, it’s me Wendy and a guy named Russ and then they realized This isn’t good. Why isn’t anybody?

taking the lead on this. And I just threw my arms up. said, I don’t know. I don’t know what the reasoning is. So based on your work, you had success. So your interpreter, Abdul, my interpreter is named Abdul as well, which not surprising. But nevertheless, you had some success. So let’s talk about the successes before we get into the actual incident Abby gave. How many folks were you able to successfully

extract from Afghanistan.

Mikael (12:55.409)
Hmm. think it’s 20, 20 or 22. I’d have to count. Yeah. So it ended up being four families in total. So it started with Abdul and Mohammed, which were, you know, my two friends on my deployment. So them and their families. And that’s really the majority of the book is just talking about their harrowing journey through Kabul and through HCI airport, through Abbey gate and eventually here at the U S and then at the end of the book, I talk about another family, the Pymans who just had a.

David Morrow (12:59.81)
Wow. Well done.

Mikael (13:24.317)
You know, crazy journey out of the country as well. they didn’t get out in the initial pullout in August. They ended up getting out. I want to say, was it either October or November, through Mazer Sharif in the North, through a operation we ran with Senator Blumenthal and his team. and then there was one family, after that, that, I did not write about in the book, but yeah, roughly 20.

David Morrow (13:49.742)
Okay, okay. And then based on your organization, and clearly you had some political support, mentioned Senator Blumenthal that got on board. The big picture, just from folks you’re working with, how many would you say effectively got out? Like over and above the 20 that you’re directly working with, would you say it was in the thousands? Like ultimately, what are the numbers on folks saved?

Mikael (13:58.077)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mikael (14:13.885)
Yeah, I don’t know exactly, but easily, know, definitely thousands, probably, probably over like 50,000, I would guess for, you know, that digital Dunkirk network that we were working through. Yeah, it’s probably, it could be higher than that. I know there’s a number somewhere I’d have to look it up.

David Morrow (14:25.89)
Wow, 50,000.

David Morrow (14:32.566)
Okay, that’s phenomenal. You know, the depressing thing is there are so many more. But you have to look at the positive side. If there wasn’t action taken by folks like yourself, those 50,000 would still be over there.

Mikael (14:40.444)
Mm-hmm.

Mikael (14:51.165)
And yeah, I mean, like you said, there’s a ton of people got left behind. mean, I’m still to this day, three years later, getting messages, not daily anymore, but almost daily of people that are still stuck at Kabul and all over Afghanistan that are, know, SIV applicants or had worked with the US or, you know, Canadian or British forces in the past. and they’re still stuck there and unfortunately there’s not a ton of hope for them. So it’s, it’s sad.

David Morrow (15:17.26)
Yeah, I’m always curious to know, from your point of view, the evacuation just seems like history repeating itself. Famously, the fall of Saigon, it’s just a chaotic pullout. We all know the picture of the helicopter taking off.

Mikael (15:26.621)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (15:37.236)
And it just baffled me that now we have this international coalition. We can look back at history and be aware that, hey, maybe we shouldn’t do things like that again. What do you think went wrong? Was it just a lack of political will? Was it just the inability to recognize that there would be a rapid military push by the Taliban?

From your perspective, what do you think was the reason why it was just such a disaster from start to finish?

Mikael (16:09.181)
How much time do we have? Yeah.

David Morrow (16:10.326)
Yeah, let’s do it, man. This is the meat of the issue right here, yeah.

Mikael (16:14.683)
Yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of things that went wrong and we can talk about a few of them. mean, number one was, you know, I try not to get too political in the book because I think there was errors on both sides of the aisle. I will say that, you know, the original pullout day being nine 11 seemed political, right? That doesn’t seem like a random date. yeah. So, you know, for them just right off the rip to make this a political stunt.

David Morrow (16:35.502)
doesn’t seem very random to me. Something happened on that day, I think, back in the day, you know.

Mikael (16:43.631)
Almost is what it seemed like. Very disappointing. That, you know, that date obviously got changed through negotiations with the Taliban to a sooner date. But, you know, I think probably the biggest thing that I would point out is just the decision to pull out of Bagram, which was our most strategic location in Afghanistan, and then run the evacuation out of a civilian airport, each kayak. You know, when you look at those two positions, you look at Bagram, which.

David Morrow (17:01.718)
Hmm.

Mikael (17:12.317)
very well fortified, multiple working runways. When I was there in 2019 and 2020, when I was leaving, there was only a few thousand troops left in Bagram and it was still very secure. And, the president was advised to leave a few thousand troops at Bagram and keep that place open. That decision ultimately was denied and we pulled out of Bagram completely. Had a botched handover to the Afghan National Army.

which eventually led to the Taliban taking over Bagram. And not to get too ahead of myself in these failures, but the bomber that detonated himself at Abbey Gate, we had him imprisoned at Bagram in the Parwan detention facility. We had him. And then the Taliban came, took over Bagram, released him. And 13 of our warriors were killed because of that decision. But so, I mean, then then you look at HKA, which is a civilian airport.

One runway, very little infrastructure for security posture. mean, it just, didn’t make any sense. so, you know, I’d say that was the biggest failure. another massive one would be, are you familiar with, Sergeant Tyler Vargas Andrews? Yeah.

David Morrow (18:30.86)
Yes, he was at the Military Influencer Conference the other week in Atlanta.

Mikael (18:35.099)
Yep. So, you you listen to his testimony afterwards and when he testified in front of Congress and, you know, he was up at the, in the sniper tower at Abbey gate with his sniper team, the information about, or the Intel that was pushed out to him and his team about the bomber, you know, came to him. And I believe that Intel was, it’s going to be a young man wearing.

forget what it was exactly. I think it was a young man wearing dark clothing being escorted by an older gentleman wearing light clothing. And he got some other descriptions of the bomber from the psychological operations team. He identified someone in the crowd at Abbey gate that he believed fit this description. He called up the psychological operations team. They confirmed that they believed this was the target. He called up his battalion commander to get approval to engage the target battalion commander denied the request.

Not only denied it, but said he didn’t have permission to authorize and he didn’t know who did. And I think that’s really the part. this is a congressional testimony that Sergeant Vargas is giving. And the part that really hits me is not so much the denial of the requests. Cause I understand if you’re the battalion commander and you feel like you have information that would make you want to deny that request and you can tell them why I understand that. But if you tell, if you’re the battalion commander.

David Morrow (19:37.443)
What?

Mikael (20:00.349)
of a Marine Corps infantry battalion and you’re telling your soldiers, you don’t know who has authority to engage a target. You got to be kidding me. You know, that’s literally your only job.

David Morrow (20:10.862)
That’s insane.

No kidding. Whoa.

Mikael (20:15.143)
So, and who knows? mean, I think Sergeant Vargas to this day believes that that was, ended up being the bomber. I wasn’t there. I never saw him. I don’t know. But to think that we, you know, potentially could have saved those 13 warriors, it’s very frustrating.

David Morrow (20:32.238)
Mm-hmm, indeed, for sure. mean, the troubling thing was everything I did was on WhatsApp. You know, like that was all, that was the feed that was essentially getting fed to our military commanders, you know, real time intel on the ground. And we got a message, get all your guys away from Abbey Gate right now, potential attack. I’m like, shit, I’m like.

Mikael (20:55.623)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

David Morrow (20:59.47)
Hold on a second, why am I getting this? That was the only thing, I was like, okay, well, we’ll message everybody, get the hell out of the dodge, but also, why am I privy to this information? This is high level stuff. How is this getting out? This was not something that should have happened in my opinion. Our Canadian effort, it was…

Mikael (21:02.077)
Exactly.

Mikael (21:12.071)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (21:26.03)
I don’t even know how to describe it. We had our special forces guys on the ground and they weren’t allowed to go outside of the wire. Like literally, they couldn’t go outside of the wire. And I just, I was scratching my head. I’m like, why is this being, why is this being run like this? Why, you know, like at least the Americans, the French, all the other NATO countries, like they were pushing their folks out. were grabbing people. were bringing them back into the airport and expelling them.

Mikael (21:35.805)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (21:55.264)
And from our perspective, all we were doing was just passively observing. that was embarrassing to me. The troops, some of them, they’re not in good place, because when you get deployed like that, you want to do something. You don’t just want to watch. That’s the worst thing you can do. The point is to take action. And even for us, same thing. I don’t know who was given the orders. There has been so much corruption around this point where

Nobody really knew who was in charge. And to me, that is mind boggling. mean, and just before I send it back to you, you know, like I have a buddy of mine who is literally texting me who was one of the C-17 pilots. And he’s like, Dave, it is absolutely insane here. There’s nobody in the towers. I don’t know what is going on. I think I’ve got a full capacity and I’m about to leave. Like, what are you telling me this for? He’s like,

Because I don’t know who to talk to. That’s how bad it got. That’s how bad it got on the ground that folks are reaching out by WhatsApp and social media columns to write their friends to be like, hey, could you contact somebody to make a decision here? That was the most troubling thing. So the fact that on the ground, guys, by you guys, mean, the US were experiencing the same thing, speaks to just a total and utter breakdown of all of our chains of command, which…

Mikael (22:54.439)
Yeah. Yeah.

David Morrow (23:22.163)
just makes me not confident in our ability to do anything moving forward. yeah, just curious to know if you have any comment on that.

Mikael (23:28.849)
Yeah, I think, State department was obviously in charge of the evacuation. was, non-combatant evacuation and they had no business even being there. Honestly. I mean, they were completely incapable and, just such a lack of planning on their part. Every, every Marine that I interviewed that was on the ground at Abbey gate had the same story and the same disdain for the State department because they all said, you know, not once.

During their time at Abbey Gate, did they see anybody from the State Department come up to the gate? And they said that they were, you know, working like normal business hours, like nine to five, and they were like shutting it down for the night while these Marines were standing guard at Abbey Gate. And then just the guidance that was coming from the State Department on, you know, what documents were being accepted at what gates was just constantly changing. you know, one day this document was good, the next day it wasn’t, and they were turning people away that had that document.

Two hours later, that document was good again. So these Marines are like, you know, still emotionally damaged from turning people away where two hours later they would have gotten in. So yeah, not a single one of the Marines had a single good thing to say about the State Department.

David Morrow (24:40.782)
This is the first I hear this. I thought we were unique in having this operation led by what we call IRCC, which is Immigration Refugees Something Canada. They changed the name. And then Global Affairs, which would be the equivalent of State Department, I believe.

Mikael (24:58.854)
Okay.

David Morrow (25:00.32)
It was super chaotic and it’s exactly what you’re explaining. They were working regular bureaucratic hours, nine to five. They were sending out, you need to leave Afghanistan? Great. We got a process for you here. Download this PDF file, fill it out, bring it back to the embassy. Wait, no, this is a war zone. Where are they going to print? There’s brownouts everywhere. We had lineups of Afghans.

Mikael (25:26.62)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (25:31.104)
at their quote unquote Kinkos to go print stuff and then the scam started. They’re like, I’ll print it for you for $1,000 or something. Because that was their ticket out to get to Canada. And we said, wait, hold on a second. And then they imposed this insane rule right off the bat and I ended up going on the news about it. They had something like 48 hours to get this paperwork in or they’re not gonna be eligible to come to Canada.

Mikael (25:41.115)
Mm-hmm. All right.

Mikael (25:56.7)
Yep.

David Morrow (25:56.814)
You know, like these bureaucratic processes with a war setting didn’t make any sense and there was no sense of urgency. And to make, insult to injury, after all the dust had settled, I think it had been six or seven months after the fall, the public servants that were running the show decided that they deserved a plaque in Canada for all the hard work and effort that they did. And it was just like, what world am I living in right now?

Mikael (26:25.821)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (26:25.846)
What world am I living in where you deserve a plaque for the hard work and effort that you guys did where thousands of our interpreters and their families just didn’t make it out because you guys failed miserably. So I don’t know if it makes me feel better that you guys had the same chaotic approach or not, but I don’t understand how two countries.

Mikael (26:36.764)
Yeah.

Mikael (26:40.145)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (26:51.842)
could have the same response where you have a military withdrawal but you have a civilian organization leading. It doesn’t make any sense to me.

Mikael (26:56.795)
Yeah. Yeah. And, know, you just reminded me of another thing, just talking about the, you know, bureaucratic paperwork nightmare is, you know, the, for, for the U S these people were applying for special immigrant visas. S I V is what we call them. And when Abdul had sent me the application to help them fill it out, I mean, as an American English speaker, I was like, this is very difficult. I don’t like.

David Morrow (27:11.223)
Yeah.

Mikael (27:22.897)
This is a huge packet. have no idea where to find this information. Like this is crazy. So as an Afghan in a war zone who, you know, maybe speaks a little English, but probably doesn’t read or write in English and maybe doesn’t even read and write in their own language, like this is actually impossible. so that was just an absolute nightmare.

David Morrow (27:31.341)
Yeah.

David Morrow (27:42.752)
Yeah, I remember staying up all night doing Abdul’s entire family’s application. We’re on WhatsApp and like as you would get enough connection, I’d be like, okay, I need all of this information. And I just stayed up filling all those papers. Same thing. They were filling in the generalized immigration papers to come to Canada. They had no special paperwork. They had nothing that was any different than what you would do if you were just living in any random country to come to Canada.

Mikael (27:50.065)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (28:11.544)
There’s no special program. And to me, that was just totally unacceptable because they hadn’t planned. But the other thing that was frustrating too, I don’t know if you had the same process, but we had to come up with a list, right? So we started canvassing everybody we knew that had an interpreter.

while serving with the Canadian Armed Forces. So we had this list of a few hundred people that we directly knew and we could have a sworn affidavit that, no, I have a picture with Abdul Mohammed. And yes, he worked with me. This is the corresponding paperwork. And as you know, most Afghans, they kept every piece of paper that we gave them in a Ziploc bag. So we could confirm all these folks were good to go. We gave that list and then it just, I don’t know.

It just kind of like vaporized into the ether that we worked so hard on confirming and do it because they’re like, yeah, if you confirm these people, they’re good. So in my mind, I’m like, okay, well, these folks are all vetted. Like I’m putting my personal stamp of approval on these guys that have identification, they’re ready to go get them on a freaking plane. And it still didn’t work. It still didn’t work. We had to use the British.

Mikael (29:19.997)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (29:26.734)
Thankfully, my interpreter Abdul, he worked for the British and the Americans. So the British were much more efficient. The British were like, yeah, buddy, like, let’s get you sorted out. Meet us at, I can’t remember where they were flying out of. I don’t think it was at HKAIA, but they said, yeah, meet here. Gave him a whole detailed set of orders and bring your family. You’re coming to the UK. And so, yeah, so, you for him, he was like, well, I really want to come to Canada. I’ve already got a brother there. Like I said,

Mikael (29:49.317)
great.

David Morrow (29:56.47)
No, take that offer right now because I don’t trust that our government’s going be able to do it. I was right. I was right. The remainder of his family took two years to get him out. So from your perspective, for folks that didn’t get out, you said there’s still a whole bunch left over. Is there any hope for those families that are probably scattered to the wind? are in Afghanistan, probably some are in Pakistan. Where are they now in terms of their application process?

Mikael (30:02.139)
Yeah.

Mikael (30:21.711)
Yeah, it’s a nightmare. So there’s over a hundred thousand pending SIVs that are still stuck there. There’s I mean, there there are organizations that are still helping people get out, but it’s so slow. And for a lot of these people are like literally on the run for their life still. And, you know, some of these people are living in tents and just doing whatever they can do to avoid the Taliban, because the Taliban knows who worked with us. You know, it’s not a it’s not a big secret.

David Morrow (30:45.614)
And they have the retinal scans and fingerprints of everybody. All the biometrics was left.

Mikael (30:49.103)
Yeah. All the biometrics. Yep. So, yeah, it’s, it’s not a good situation. Like you said, a lot of them are hiding in Pakistan, but Pakistan is trying to deport those people back to Afghanistan and right in the hands of the Taliban. So, yeah, unfortunately there’s, there’s not a huge hope. there’s, we’re definitely not going to get all of them over here. It’ll just be a drop in the bucket.

David Morrow (31:04.632)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (31:14.69)
Yeah, that’s the unfortunate reality, I think, that we’re just gonna have to eat, we’re not gonna get everybody over. And that’s just poor planning. And you mentioned accountability before, right? You’ve got an anger towards the government and you haven’t really seen any accountability. From my perspective, there’s been at least congressional hearings. They took it seriously enough that you brought people into Congress to explain themselves.

Mikael (31:39.517)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (31:44.704)
But has there been any firings? Has there been any individuals at any level that has have lost their job or been disciplined from your knowledge?

Cut.

Mikael (31:55.377)
You know, it’s good to see the congressional hearings that are just being led by, you know, one or two congressmen that actually care and the rest is just a show. mean, when you watch these congressional hearings, it’s so obvious that we’re in a political cycle because it’s like, there’s not even like a want to find accountability or a desire. It’s just back and forth banter about what,

what Trump did wrong, what Biden did wrong, and they’re just attacking the other side. And it’s just like, after 10 minutes, you’re just like, this is just, you know, part of the presidential race. That’s the only thing that’s happening here. No one here actually gives a shit about Afghanistan. So no, there’s no accountability. There won’t be, unfortunately, for the families that, you know, lost their family members. You know, I wish more than anything that they would.

get some closure and some accountability, they’re not going to get it. And that’s just the way American politics works these days.

David Morrow (32:53.918)
It’s really unfortunate to hear. had Stu Scheller on the podcast. You’re familiar with him, I presume. And that was his biggest issue, right? In uniform, calling out the leadership. You’re not doing your jobs. We just lost 13 of our Marines because you guys didn’t do your job. And in any other world, you should be fired. All the way down. Fire them all.

Mikael (32:58.141)
Mm-hmm.

Mikael (33:20.69)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (33:22.606)
inexcusable, nobody lost their jobs and nobody had any repercussions except for, there you go, except for him for telling it like it is and then having the audacity to call out his leadership. So, you know, I commend him and what he did because he stuck to his guns and he knew it was going to cost him his career. That’s bravery in my opinion. know, we didn’t really have anybody, no, we didn’t, let me rephrase that. We didn’t have anybody here that took a stand like that in Canada.

Mikael (33:26.233)
except for him.

David Morrow (33:53.152)
And it’s unfortunate because I mean, with what I did and what a bunch of veterans did, like we were sure we have skin in the game, but it’s easier for us to get up and say something. I’m not going to have any repercussions. You know, it’s not going to cost me my career, but for individuals that were really on the line, you know, like Stu, like that was a, that was a big deal. That was a big deal. And I was glad he did that because I think it sent a message that allowed him clear, not only to.

Mikael (34:07.549)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (34:22.83)
the Marines and the military in the US, but also up here in Canada as well. We need to enter an era of accountability. And I haven’t let this go. And you wrote a book, I’m pretty sure you haven’t let it go either. It would be good to see accountability at some point. And maybe during your election cycle, maybe not being voted in is the accountability metric or re-voted in with the Biden administration. I don’t know. I don’t know what it looks like, but…

I think you touched on something that both sides don’t seem to want to get to the heart of the issue. And do you think it’s because everybody, like both sides are so intrinsically tied to the war machine that they’re not going to burn any of their own in this because then they’ve taken a stance against the military industrial complex and then that would put them on the out group rather than the in group. Is that kind of the way you’re interpreting things?

Mikael (35:16.807)
I just don’t think they care. think that, you know, the, not only has the media shifted the lens, but you know, you think about like Ukraine and Russia, that’s already old news, right? Now we’re onto Israel and Hamas. It’s like, do we just, we just shift our focus so fast, right? So it’s Afghanistan is not only old news now it’s super old news. So, like I said, I honestly just don’t think that they care.

David Morrow (35:28.43)
Yeah.

David Morrow (35:45.41)
Well, I can safely say that there’s a lot of folks here in Canada that care and I know there’s a lot of folks in the US that care too. I think ultimately that’s what matters most. You can’t force politicians to care. I became very stoic about all this. It forced me to learn an important lesson that he who angers you owns you. And I was angry for a very long time about this, but the government doesn’t care. Justin Trudeau doesn’t care. Joe Biden doesn’t care. Be angry all you want.

Mikael (35:51.698)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (36:13.976)
which is ruining your own life. And the bitterness was not doing me any favors. So for me, it activated me a lot more. And in your case, obviously you wrote a book. And what’s cool about your book is that you got a blurb. So a testimonial from Sebastian Younger. Tell us more about that and how did you connect with him and how did you get him to write a testimonial for you?

Mikael (36:15.377)
Yeah.

Mikael (36:41.255)
Well, yeah, I mean, I’m a massive Sebastian Junger fan. I, you know, I had a pretty interesting military career because I joined very late. I think I went to basic training at like 27. yeah. So yeah, I was for real. was. So by that point, know, Rastrepo had already been out. Tribe had been out his book, war had been out. So these were, you know, pieces of work that honestly really did influence me to join the military. So Sebastian Junger has always been, you know,

David Morrow (36:51.466)
Old man. Yeah, grandpa.

Mikael (37:10.649)
an artist or an author that I’ve looked up to. And actually when I was on my deployment, me and my girlfriend at the time had a journal that we were sending back and forth to each other and just asking questions and writing to each other. And one of the questions I remember she asked me was if you could have dinner with anybody in the world right now, who would it be? And for whatever reason, I wrote Sebastian Younger and, you know, fast forward to last year.

I joined an amazing group that I want to give a shout out to, Patrol Base Abate. It’s an amazing veterans group for anybody that’s, you know, trying to find community once they’re home. And I joined their book club and once a year, all their clubs get to go up to their patrol base in Montana and just spend a long weekend with veterans and connect. And, and, it was just an amazing experience. And it just, just turned out that Sebastian Younger was going to be like the guest author there.

so got to go spend, you know, four days with him and, it was just an amazing experience. all read, we read tribe and we read, the last patrol. I think, is that what it was called? No, it was called,

Mikael (38:21.435)
He made a documentary called The Last Patrol and then he wrote a book about it. And I forget what the name of it is. Freedom. But we got to read those and discuss them with him, which was super cool. So just getting to know him over those four days and connecting with him. then at the end of it, just stayed in contact with him and he was willing to read my book. So he read it and was gracious enough to write me a nice review. So that was very cool for me.

David Morrow (38:27.765)
yeah.

David Morrow (38:48.524)
No kidding. I’m just going to bring it up here so folks can read it. So folks, if you haven’t already clued in, go to the book page that’s here on Amazon. And I had it here for a second. think it’s on your Michael Cook page here. So, right. Well, I’ll put it up once.

Mikael (39:13.501)
should be on this page here.

David Morrow (39:15.598)
Should be on this page here. Yeah, exactly. It was a bit further down for review. I had a nice one already like teed up and I was like, sweet, I’m gonna put this one out. It’s gonna look great. These are customer reviews. I’ll put it up. There you go.

Mikael (39:27.089)
I think you just passed it. It’s right in the middle there. Go up a little bit. Right there.

David Morrow (39:33.706)
right there. Bingo. Got it. Okay, cool. Yeah. so let me just read it out here. It is vitally important that a disaster staggering and inexplicable as the U S withdrawal from Afghanistan be fully documented and explored life and death. A navigate is brutal, honest account by an American veteran of what went wrong and how if you determine people who tried to make it right, beautifully crafted and deeply researched, it marks a vital contribution to the accounts that have come out of the war on terror. Sebastian Younger.

Mikael (39:34.481)
Yeah.

David Morrow (40:03.436)
New York Times bestselling offer. Wow. That’s really cool, man. That’s super cool.

Mikael (40:07.569)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was very thankful to him for that.

David Morrow (40:11.682)
Yeah, right on. Absolutely. I mean, I think he would be on my top five folks that I’d want to have dinner with. Joe Rogan probably being the first. And then he’s definitely in the top five of living in dead folks that I would love to have dinner with at some point. So moving forward, what do you hope the book accomplishes and do you any new plans for?

Mikael (40:22.919)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (40:41.068)
writing anything more and doing more in terms of activism and helping more Afghans get over the US.

Mikael (40:47.015)
Yeah, think the, probably the biggest thing is just that this isn’t over right away. As we discussed, there’s still over a hundred thousand of our SIV partners that are still stuck under Taliban rule in Afghanistan. And, you know, there’s still a movement to try to get them out. If you, if you’re listening at home and you know, you want to help out somehow, there’s some great NGOs that have popped up, not only to help the Afghans still stuck, but to help our H-KIA veterans that served in Afghanistan during the withdrawal. Moral Compass Federation is.

One I always like to shout out there, a great collection of different NGOs that are all kind of working in that space. So that’s a great one to support. But for me personally, you know, I just, I’m still kind of, you know, doing the media cycle for the book here. Me and a friend, Beth Bailey started a podcast called the Afghanistan Project Podcast, which she’s still running. But I have kind of taken a step back with the book.

But really that started as a space where Afghans could come and listen and just try to learn what type of documentation they might need or what type of visa they might be able to qualify for. Because we realized that they just had no clue. didn’t even know where to start the process of trying to leave Afghanistan. So that’s kind of how it started. It’s kind of shifted a little bit to tell stories about our H-KIA veterans that served in Afghanistan during the withdrawal. So it’s kind of a mixture of both, but you know, that’s another great place that you can just go and learn.

if you still want more information.

David Morrow (42:15.18)
Right on. Yeah, that’s great. I saw that on YouTube, the Afghanistan project pod. Great initiative because that was ultimately the limiting factors, right? Was the amount of information to float out to Afghanistan. There’s a lot of piecemeal stuff. You know, we created a like an ad hoc website, right? To at least have somewhere to point folks so that they can find where the documents are, you know, have a quick tutorial on how to use them. And, you know,

Mikael (42:26.161)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (42:45.114)
That wasn’t being produced by the government. The government didn’t give two shits. They were like, yeah, go on the website, download your 40 page PDF and fill it in by hand. And to add insult to injury, to add insult to injury, our diplomatic staff, so our diplomat, was one of the first to leave, not one of the last to leave. It was humiliating to see the British ambassador there.

basically hand-filling applications for Afghans to get out because the British get it. You know, that’s one thing I get. They get war and they get the fall of empires. They’ve been doing it for hundreds of years. And for them, they’re like, no, this is my post and I go out last. It’s what I do. But no, this shameful display of cowardice here. And you know, we got all of our NBC staff out, of course, but.

Mikael (43:29.788)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (43:39.51)
all the interpreters that did the fighting and were wounded and injured and you name it wore our uniforms, right? As you know, you know, they were left high and dry. there’s, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of things that need to be rectified. Let’s just put it that way. And we haven’t had the chance to have a full after action review here. And like you, I don’t

think we ever will officially. So that’s why it’s important to have conversations with folks like yourself on a podcast because it at least brings a little bit of closure and you know in our small groups we can at least move forward and see some progress and I think that’s the wins that we need to just reinforce and see for the future. So Michael I really appreciate your time man this has been a really good conversation. I love the fact that you got a really well researched

Mikael (44:01.008)
Mm-hmm.

David Morrow (44:26.862)
acclaimed book out there on this topic because it’s the first that I’ve seen so far. So definitely going to dig into it. And I’ll definitely have some questions for the future. So do you have any last parting words for for folks before we sign off?

Mikael (44:39.729)
No, I appreciate the opportunity to come on and talk. If anyone’s looking for the book, can find it anywhere you buy your books. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, can go to michaelcook.com. Anywhere you buy your books, it should be available in print or audible.

David Morrow (44:52.864)
Right on. it. So thanks so much, Michael. Really appreciate your time and folks don’t forget, train hard, fight easy. See you the next one. Peace.